[CRS_META] declined: crsociety: no trim / off-topic

Fri Dec 28 17:45:06 EST 2007

My off-list message to Tom is below.
-Tim C.

Hi Tom,

This thread has gotten way off track here.  I agree with your analysis
below - that John's replies have drifted topically and have been overly
defensive to the point of being needlessly insulting.  Obviously, not
everyone drinks organic Kool Aide.

http://lists.calorierestriction.org/pipermail/cr_lists.calorierestriction.org/2007-December/008224.html
http://lists.calorierestriction.org/pipermail/cr_lists.calorierestriction.org/2007-December/008228.html
http://lists.calorierestriction.org/pipermail/cr_lists.calorierestriction.org/2007-December/008234.html

Regarding your post below, it is more productive off-list or to Meta and
not on-list.  Discussions about topicality detract from the topic itself
which is why there is the Meta list.

I am going to be watching John's main list postings too.  Much more closely
to be fair.

-Tim C.

So, I'm "polluting the list"? You spam the main cr list with "information"
which at best belongs on the community list and it is *I* who is "polluting"
the list? The only pollution here is the one that compels you to promote Ron
Paul on this list - how do politics belong here at all? Why are you
promoting political candidates as well as your views on "large agribusiness"
on the main cr list? Isn't it enough that you spam the community list with
your political stuff? It just doesn't belong here on the main cr list. I've
been quite civil in my posts to you here, but as I see you resort to
personal attacks (like claiming that I "pollute" the list), I will not
tolerate that. If you're spoiling for a fight, you won't like the results,
buddy. We don't need political garbage here. I object to your politicizing
this list, especially that you can't even remain civil while doing so.

On 12/27/07, John Oh <> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 27, 2007, at 9:30 PM, Tom Bierce wrote:
> >
>> > > OK, let's see what is "not obvious" to me. My original statement was
>> > > that
>> > > the prices you quoted were high compared to TJ's and I wondered what
>> > > was
>> > > behind that, since pasteurization must introduce additional costs
>> > > compared
>> > > to raw almonds.
> >
> > It is well known that organic products often cost much more than
> > conventional products.  You never cited any reason to expect that the
> > pasteurization costs for the TJ almonds would be anything close to the
> > cost difference between conventional and organic almonds.  So your
> > question was strange, especially when you failed to mention that the
> > TJ almonds were not organic (implying falsely that they were, as the
> > entire thread had been about organic almonds only).
> >
>> > > Your latest statement basically argues that the cost of
>> > > pasteurization is a
>> > > big burden for small farmers and tiny for big agro. I'd like to see
>> > > some
>> > > hard figures, otherwise this is all hand waving.
> >
> > No, I merely said it was obvious that a cost CAN be burdensome to
> > small farmers but not large ones, in response to your foolish claim
> > that those two positions were inherently contradictory.  I had little
> > knowledge of or interest in the details of pasteurization costs.  When
> > Lewis posted about the apparently large financial burden on some small
> > farmers (a topic about which I had *not* previously commented nor
> > independently investigated) and he asked about large farmers wanting
> > to shut out small ones, I was not surprised, because such behavior is
> > typical of business and government regulation, as I noted.
> >
>> > > However, even if that were
>> > > true, it's totally irrelevant to the core of my argument: why not go
>> > > with
>> > > the cheaper solution (all other things being equal healthwise)?
> > ...
>> > > I don't know why
>> > > the argument has devolved into irrelevant tangents that have nothing
>> > > to do
>> > > with health.
> >
> > Everyone knows that people have differing opinions about the merits of
> > organic or raw products.  As you know, there are list members who
> > currently prefer organic or raw almonds, unlike you, and my purpose in
> > posting my original message was to do a favor for such people who
> > wanted organic raw nuts by informing them about sources that they
> > didn't know about.  Not surprisingly, I've received a number of
> > messages from people off-list expressing interest in those sources.
> >
> > I made no attempt to argue the case for organic or raw food, as there
> > has been much discussion on such topics on the list and elsewhere.  If
> > anyone has something new to add on the matter, it would be welcome.
> > However, you provided no information on either side of the debate.  If
> > you personally have no interest in paying more for organic nuts, then
> > you could have simply ignored the post (as presumably everyone else
> > with such beliefs did), instead of replying to my post by stating that
> > there was "zero reason" to pay a higher price, and acting bewildered
> > why anyone would pay more for organic almonds, implying such people
> > are all idiots, which is not useful to anyone on the list.  After all
> > the text you've expended, you've provided nothing of value in this
> > thread to anyone else on the list as far as I can tell.
> >
>> > > As to "investigating" TJ's claims - you think it absurd to do so,
>> > > since all
>> > > we need to do is to examine the bag and see what TJ has written on
>> > > it. I beg
>> > > to disagree. Haven't we just been arguing about how it is that TJ
>> > > can write
>> > > on the bag "raw" when it is in fact pasteurized? I guess it is NOT
>> > > enough to
>> > > read what's written on a bag. I take the same attitude to labels
>> > > such as
>> > > "organic". They mean little to me.
> >
>> > > From studies we have seen some produce
>> > > categories have no advantages from being cultivated in organic ways
>> > > compared
>> > > to conventional ways: for example, onions cultivated organically
>> > > have no
>> > > more or less pesticides than conventional ones, whereas bell peppers
>> > > show
>> > > huge differences. I'd like to investigate and know where almonds
>> > > stand wrt.
>> > > "organic" vs "conventional" when it comes to health. If having them
>> > > "organic" is as irrelevant as in the case of onions, then I'll
>> > > decide on
>> > > other factors. Where does TJ's get their almonds? Maybe it's worth
>> > > asking?
>> > > Perhaps to you it's "silly" to investigate such issues, and we
>> > > should just
>> > > blindly accept the superiority of "organic"... reminds me of those
>> > > wise
>> > > souls who accept blindly when a producer slaps the label "natural"
>> > > on their
>> > > product. For me, I prefer to question what is behind labels, but to
>> > > each his
>> > > own.
> >
> > You are incorrect.  "Organic" has a specific legally defined meaning
> > regulated by the USDA so it is not comparable to "natural" or "raw" or
> > meaningless marketing terms.
> >
> > Therefore, when a package says it's "organic", it is.  You said you
> > would investigate "if TJ's almonds are organic".  As I said, that
> > investigation would consist of looking at the package.
> >
> > The merits of organic vs. conventional almonds is a perfectly valid
> > question, but that was not what you said you would investigate nor
> > have you provided any useful information on that topic.
> >
>> > > Similarly, I'm not bewitched by claims that a product is "local" or
>> > > "from a small farmer" or whatever the fad label of the moment
>> > > happens to be
>> > > popular.
> >
> > ...
> >
>> > > The plight of small farmers, big
>> > > agro and Ron Paul are utterly irrelevant to me.
> >
> > There are multiple reasons why people prefer local products or small
> > farmers, which include both nutritional and other factors.  I have
> > nothing new to add to the well-known reasons.  You are welcome to not
> > care personally about those issues, but you don't need to pollute the
> > list with your pointless mockery of other people's values.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >